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Author Topic: Necromancers, Rise again  (Read 15594 times)

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November 02, 2011, 03:09:46 PM
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I'd like to share a few things I've discovered in regards to Necromancers, and purpose a twist on a controversial build. I've tried them all again, except the last one as of recent (v3.4f).

The True Necromancer:
Strat posted a build order some years ago now (its here somewhere), it was pretty solid for a prc that had debatable self-gimp entry requirements. When I first played it way back then, I had a real hard time because of its natural weaknesses. (ie split caster divine and arcane). It was alright once you got into the TN prc, but before that, it was hellish.

Thats all changed now because of several things. Later PRC versions added the Undeath Domain, and then corpsecrafter feats. Also at some point the PRC introduced pnp_animate_dead. Now a Cleric can get animate dead at clevel 3, if I recall correctly. He can have a few tyrantfog zombies, combined with a few corpsecrafter feats and he has some serious undead bodyguards. One can not underestimate their strength at early levels. Animate dead will serve you well as a TN until you get your create undead abilities.

The Dread Necromancer:
Very cool class. I found him to be the squishiest Necromancer though. All those wicked touch attacks, begs for getting into melee. Well that got me killed more than once. Maybe if we had the Tomb Tainted feat, he would be as suggested in pnp, much stronger. Great undead powers such as Undead Mastery at 8th, and he of course gets the best of necromancy spells from both sides of magic. At 20 he gets lich transformation, and now he's the toughest Necromancer. Ironic.

Pale Master:
I always cursed Bioware for gimping this flavorful prc. At first I thought it was Wotc's fault. Starting off a description to a prc by basically stating, "necromancy is a poor choice for arcane casters, roll a cleric you noob". But I soon discovered it was indeed Bioware. Essentially the PM trades arcane power for melee presence in the form of mostly added defense, with necromantic added goodies. Its a fair trade I think, as I always seen necromancers as tougher than your average casters. 

But whatever version you look at (Libris Mortis, Tome and Blood, etc), they didn't implement all his abilities. They went to town with the RDD, but came up short for the PM. Why? +4 strength enhancement with undead graft, undead cohort, animate dead should use caster level, etc. All of the missing stuff they could have implemented, but didn't. I hope someday to see the PRC give the PM justice. But even still you can make a solid necromancer with this prc. You get the good fort and will saves, added AC, immunities and much more hps than your average caster. Plus all the good defensive spells of a wizard, if your able to get scrolls. This guy can get into melee, but his touch attacks are arguably not as good as the DN's.

Master of Shrouds:
With no intention of dis'ing anyones favorite, this guy is still the master in my book. You only need to choose one of the domains for entry, your other will likely be Undeath as a cleric of course. Like the TN build, you will be getting animate dead early, and enhanced HD for a higher undead control limit. Throw in some corpsecrafter feats, and you got an army in the making. Unlike the TN early levels though, your animate undead gets better faster as your full caster progression. You can get in there for melee as you'll be getting high BAB, full plate/shield combined with cleric spell buffs. You'll quickly have an army of skeleton Chieftons that is useful even in high levels. If the enemy manages to scrap that (you failed to finger of death that mage casting a empowered fireball?), you got your pissed at the living, incorporeal summons for back up. All the way up till L20 you got lots of assorted undead choices. You'll have animate dead, create undead, create greater undead, Plague of the Undead, and your MoS incorporeal summons.

As if that wasn't enough, your eligable for epic spell casting when you go epic, something the others are either denied or delayed. Of course you seek out the ancient tomes of Mummy Dust and Unholy Disciple (this vampire is a rock star btw) for epic spells. Now thats allot of undead, combined with full caster level necromancy spells, and the cleric group buff spells for all your minions. The only question left remaining is, what nation will you conquer first? (Flip a boney finger and let Nerull decide)

 Warlock:
An old article I read suggests this is not an ideal class for a necromancer. Albeit its aimed at pnp, it does have some points that are perhaps valid here. ( http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook )

I'm not convinced yet though. Dipping into a class to get Rebuke undead allows eligibility for Zone of Animation and Undead Mastery. The Dead Walk invocation can be casted infinitely, so when your army starts to dwindle, you just start spooning more out as needed to fill ranks or occupy foes. Utterdark Blast I believe its called, converts your damage to negative energy, and I'm assuming it will heal undead as any other negative energy attack. Combined with Eldritch Chain, Line, or other blast shapes, you can do both in theory, heal your minions while hurting the enemy. Take a few corpsecrafter feats, and get the right invocations for the mix, why wouldn't this work? And for all other purposes why wouldn't such a Warlock be considered a necromancer? 



November 02, 2011, 04:36:57 PM
Reply #1

Very cool write up thanks for this.

One question, does Dread Necromancer's Undead Mastery stack with corpsecrafter and the epic undead mastery?

What do you think about Mystic Theurge as a Necromancer? He's not as specialized as the others but he gets most of the tools right?

You've said you like Master of Shrouds the most but what do you think is the best arcane Necromancer?

Thanks again for the good read.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 04:49:44 PM by Deathpoint »


November 02, 2011, 07:08:01 PM
Reply #2
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The DN's Undead Mastery does stack with corpsecrafter, so ya, his undeads will be stronger compared to the same undead creature of any other Necromancer. With expection perhaps to the True Necro and his Zone of Desecration. I'd have to verify that. As for Undead Mastery, strange that these two feats have the same name, but are different in description. Havent tested this, so I'm not sure. (My last DN got waxed at level 22, Jergal bless his dark soul). He would eventually meet the requirements, so I can't see why not.

Mystic Theurge, ya I suppose he would be a valid choice and he should be included. Haven't played with him though. But just from looking at the class, he delays spell progression to gain both sides, so he gets access to both divine and arcane necromancy. Caster level I don't think will be an issue thanks to Practiced caster feats. I assume though he's a split attribute caster? Thats gonna be tough for a Save-or-Die type Necromancer, so that aspect might not work. But, with access to both sides he can make and buff his undead out the wazoo. And with so many spell slots, he can have some more summon options per day, and extra to back up his horde. Yup, its inspirational enough to try, I roll one up and see how he does.

Yes thats what I meant, I like the Master of Shrouds the most, I didn't mean to imply he was the best. The best is subjective, depends how you play. Are you a horde master, or single powerful undead cohort sort. Save or die caster, or touch of death dealer. Or perhaps a combination of? Lots of aspects to necromancy, and thanks to the PRC we got some good choices for all types. I like the Pale Master for his defense, but I use him in melee. Ya that sounds corny I know, but it works the way I build him. I burned two feats so he could use a Scythe, and buffed the bejeepers out of it with keen, flame weapon, GMW, Blade of Blood, etc. I intended it for RP flavour at first, but was surprised to find it worked in practice. Especially once he found that vorpal Scythe, wowsa. His undead tie of the enemy, while he would flank and land a touch attack or touch spell, then wack em if need be.

Otherwise my vote would go for the Dread Necro as the typical Arcane Necromancer. He has Rebuke, can summon hordes, strong undead, and can cast necromancy with very great effect. But stay behind your horde. At least until L20. Damage reduction ain't gonna do shite when an Ogre crits you with a great axe.

Still, I got two more types to build and try, so I'm not really sure yet.


November 02, 2011, 08:54:37 PM
Reply #3

Thank you for taking the time to reply in depth to my questions. Found your perspective very interesting.


November 03, 2011, 12:40:38 AM
Reply #4
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I assume though he's a split attribute caster? Thats gonna be tough for a Save-or-Die type Necromancer, so that aspect might not work.
The THeurge doesn't have any casting of its own, it just continues with the extra spells-per-day from previous classes, and the spells/day boost comes every level to both. So, wahtever stats are relevant to your previous classes. With that in mind, theoretically, a Wizard/Archivist mix could work, since both use Int. Or a Cleric/Witch, to use Wis. But I'm not very good at building casters, so I'm almost certainly missing something.


November 03, 2011, 03:37:05 AM
Reply #5
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Quote
All those wicked touch attacks, begs for getting into melee. Well that got me killed more than once.
True, that's why I like Dread Necro/Warlock/Eldritch Theurge mix - Greatreach Blast rocks!

Quote
Maybe if we had the Tomb Tainted feat, he would be as suggested in pnp, much stronger.
We have that feat now ;)

I agree that Pale Master is not very strong in NWN (at least compared to PnP version - the one from Libris Mortis has only -1 penalty to caster level + all nice PM abilities) - maybe someday we will update this class to 3.5 rules.

Also there is another class that can be a good necromancer - Red Wizard can have insane save DC for necromancy spells. Shadow Adept is less powerful, but a solid necromancer as well.


November 03, 2011, 12:31:47 PM
Reply #6
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With that in mind, theoretically, a Wizard/Archivist mix could work, since both use Int. Or a Cleric/Witch, to use Wis. But I'm not very good at building casters, so I'm almost certainly missing something.
Ahh, ok then. In that case, yeah this would work. While leveling as a Theurge, does he still get access to all the typical DC boosting feats? If so, then yes, this should work well.

Quote
Maybe if we had the Tomb Tainted feat, he would be as suggested in pnp, much stronger.
We have that feat now ;)

I agree that Pale Master is not very strong in NWN (at least compared to PnP version - the one from Libris Mortis has only -1 penalty to caster level + all nice PM abilities) - maybe someday we will update this class to 3.5 rules.

Also there is another class that can be a good necromancer - Red Wizard can have insane save DC for necromancy spells. Shadow Adept is less powerful, but a solid necromancer as well.
Tomb Tainted - We do?!, Thats awesome. As of the current beta, or upcoming release? I've been meaning to upgrade, but it sounded as though 3.5 final was in the pipe, so I thought I'd just wait a bit. Not sure if I can wait now, lol.

Oh yes, how could I forget the Red Wizard. I have made one of them before, and yes, Awesome Save-or Die Necromancer. Also could include the Shadow Adept as well I suppose.

Glad to see you agree about the PM Xwarren. Yes, I'm mean either version would be leaps and bounds ahead of biowares version, but I too am fond of the Libris one. I assume for the feat requirement, you could use "Skill Focus:Lore" for the Skill Focus (Knowledge [religion]). Would that be close enough translation?

EDIT: Oh and any chance of seeing the Desecrate spell in the future?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 01:09:04 PM by Praylak »


November 03, 2011, 01:10:16 PM
Reply #7

Praylak I hope you don't mind if we discuss other Necromancer builds in this thread.

I was wondering if this build works:

Wizard 1/Dread Necromancer 8/Red Wizard

Would this not unlock the Dread Necromancer spells? The manual only mentions bard, sorcerer, and wizard. I thought maybe Dread Necro might be treated like a sorcerer or something. If it did work would it be any good?

Edit:

Tested it and it seems to be working. I think I'm going to try it.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 02:46:07 PM by Deathpoint »


November 04, 2011, 01:36:03 PM
Reply #8
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Praylak I hope you don't mind if we discuss other Necromancer builds in this thread.

I was wondering if this build works:

Wizard 1/Dread Necromancer 8/Red Wizard

Edit:

Tested it and it seems to be working. I think I'm going to try it.

Thats cool it does work, good to know. You got the Undead Mastery from the DN, combined with awesome spell power of the RW. This is actually what the Necromancer handbook recommends you do in pnp with the DN, prc out after 8th. Although its outdated (2006), its got some good info we can use.
 


November 04, 2011, 02:06:38 PM
Reply #9
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My Warlock Necromancer is coming along, but I had a great deal of trouble with her at the beginning. Couldn't do this as human. Tried twice. Got waxed by a mixed group of good alinged gnomes the first time. She was just too damn squishy and Eldritch blast was not landing as often as I would like. The module was being nasty too though, no luck with chests, and crap rolls.

But I rerolled as a Female Drow, and got her up to level 12 now. We got the Dead Walk with a corpsecrafter feats and its really turned things around. Haven't dipped into a rebuke class yet, didn't think about this till after, but it appears I'll have to dip into cleric as a Drow, anything else will be an xp penalty, any suggestions?. Argh. Well its just for one level, so, no biggie. Now though, she seems to consistently land eldritch blasts, and I assume its because of the much higher dex? I think its using the 3.5 touch attack rules, as I'm seeing different bonuses for attack. I got weapon finesse too this time, not sure if that is helping?, but at least if melee happens, she can hit with the rapier.

But its awesome being able to maintain my skeleton horde without rest. Getting animate dead at clevel6 is better than a wizard, almost as good as a Cleric. For more RP flavour I'm using Frightful blast essence with my Eldritch power. So far so good.


 


November 04, 2011, 05:10:07 PM
Reply #10

Hey Praylak. Do you mind sharing what modules you use while playing? Thanks.


November 05, 2011, 12:53:22 AM
Reply #11
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Hey Praylak. Do you mind sharing what modules you use while playing? Thanks.

I'm using a slightly modified version of Halven's "Endless Nights IV". I have EN5 as well, but I like how 4 handles evil characters. Its always been my favorite. I should get out more and check out the thousands of others out there, I know. But I love this one. Its awesome replayability keeps me coming back, thats why I can keep playing it, over and over again.

Also I really like the hardcore ranking system, so its always a rush to see if a new toon I roll up can beat my number one ranking character.
     


November 05, 2011, 06:42:30 PM
Reply #12

"The manual only mentions bard, sorcerer, and wizard"

I have a Sor 6 / Pal 4 / RWoT 30 that gets a ". . . illegally merge another arcane caster with RWoT. All 'casting will not fail."

Is Sor compatible with RWoT (per manual) or not (per fail message)?

Did Pally jack things up?
Fermi was a Pyrokineticist


November 05, 2011, 10:09:09 PM
Reply #13

Well the manual says you need Tatoo Focus which is Wizard only right? The manual just says that you will gain spell levels of your highest caster class.

So in other words it's compatible with Sorc but you need Tattoo focus which means you need to take at least 1 wizard level.


November 06, 2011, 02:22:50 AM
Reply #14
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I'm not sure because I haven't played Red Wizard recently, but I think ThE LoSt BoY is right - merging Red Wizard with a spellcasting class other than Wizard will break all spellcasting.

(I know the manual mentions bards and sorcerers, but that's the way it was implemented)