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Author Topic: Practiced Invocation  (Read 13734 times)

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September 06, 2011, 06:59:46 PM

With the new Warlock PrC's, Practiced Invocation would be a nice addition.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Practiced_Invocation_%283.5e_Feat%29
Fermi was a Pyrokineticist


September 07, 2011, 02:33:27 AM
Reply #1
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Umm, well... This is kinda too strong of a feat. That would mean that 3 warlock/2 fighter could get lesser invocation when he reaches warlock 4. Which would kind of break the WotC standard of 3 least, 3 lesser, 3 greater, 3 dark. It should be more or less equal to practiced spellcaster feats - increasing caster level (which helps with dispel checks and SR, and also increases duration and damage of spells). And those feats don't give access to higher level spells. So I would call it "practiced invoker" instead and make it increase eldritch blast damage and invoker level.

While I would certainly enjoy this feat (who doesn't want better invo's earlier? :D), I think it may be imbalanced. What you would lose by abandoning the class for four levels would be just the class abilities and you would have less invocations. And you would be just fine with power of the invocations you know.
Ideas are bulletproof.


September 07, 2011, 05:42:42 PM
Reply #2

With the new Warlock PrC's, Practiced Invocation would be a nice addition.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Practiced_Invocation_%283.5e_Feat%29

It's homebrew, so probably not.
HEATSTROKE


September 07, 2011, 06:58:13 PM
Reply #3

I thought P-Caster / Manifester PRC implementation was only level dependent effects, i.e. Spell / Power Pen, damage, duration, etc. The only early acquisition I saw was Epic Spellcasting (L17 caster + PCaster = L21 caster).

RE: Official material filter. 100% coder's call. I continue to recommend non-WotC ideas that are measured in power and fit well into game / class themes. Not all that WotC puts out is measured in power OR makes sense in their own system (uber-class, I mean monk, anyone?).
Fermi was a Pyrokineticist


September 08, 2011, 06:50:44 AM
Reply #4
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Monk is one of the weakest classes actually. Has terrible MAD, low attack bonus for a fighter... And is very dependant on magic items. Good things are saves and movement speed, and some immunities.

Strongest class in Player Handbook was Druid I believe, with great spells up to level 9 and good combat ability. Then there's Wizard with incredible amount of things he is capable of doing, cleric which is similar in strength to the druid (caster strong in melee, way better than monk and the fighter), and sorcerer, though he is weaker. In sheer power he is great, but he lacks versatility.

In NWN things were different. A lot less spells available, so sorcerer was much stronger. But IMO with the coming of PRC wizard is stronger again with much larger amount of spells known.

To the topic, yes, it is homebrew, but adding a feat which increases caster level for warlock/DFA and increases their eldritch blast/breath damage is rather considerable.
Ideas are bulletproof.


September 08, 2011, 06:14:54 PM
Reply #5

It's pretty much a given that WotC went a long way to compromising the whole system for whoever championed monks. The old Bozo-ware boards beat this to death. Here are the highlights.

Best saves? Check.
Lowest difference between attacks (3 v. fighter 5)? Check.
Most melee attacks w/o TWF / Tempest type builds? Check.
More unarmed damage than melee weapons (2d10 @ L20)? Check.
Free Cleave to get an extra attack w/o burning a feat? Check.
Best skills (Discipline, Tumble)? Check.
Uber SR that is hardwired (can't be reduced even w/ Mord's D) into NWN? Check. Thanks, Bozo-ware!
Max SR so high that only a few caster builds can bypass 100%? Check.
Multiple abilities that add to AC? Check.
AC that a fighter needs a 20 to hit? Check.
Primary AC bonus type (Dodge) that stacks (while all other types don't?) Check.
Free level based AC bonus? Check.
Free Improved Evasion to take 0 damage 95% of time to Evocation spells? Check.
Free Deflect Arrows (95% change to avoid 1 missile / round)? Check.
Easy access to Epic Dodge (opp's first attack always misses)? Check.
Free Imp K-down to always K-down mages? Check.
Free disease / poison immunity? Check.
Free 50% concealment? Check.
Fastest movement in the game? Check.
Uber-items tailor made for class (Boots of uber Dodge, Gauntlets of uber damage)? Check.

If you can't be hit by spells (SR too high), take damage from spells (Imp Evasion) or even be hit by fighter weapons (AC too high), it pretty much compromises your whole system.

That didn't quite happen, but some WotC / Bozo-ware eggheads tried REAL hard to turn D&D into Monks & Punks (everyone else).
Fermi was a Pyrokineticist


September 09, 2011, 03:31:28 AM
Reply #6
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Best saves? Check.

Alright, that is true. And Monk needs constitution, dex and wisdom so he winds up those saves even higher.

Quote
Lowest difference between attacks (3 v. fighter 5)? Check.

In 3.5 the difference is 5. Also Monk gets 5 attacks with this, with +15 on first one. +15 is low. Fighting classes get +20, when dual wielding its +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+3. Monk can use kamas, yeah, but it will drop his BAB even lower. And he won't be using this famed 2d10 damage.

Quote
Most melee attacks w/o TWF / Tempest type builds? Check.
True. Still... His attacks do crap damage.

Quote
More unarmed damage than melee weapons (2d10 @ L20)? Check.

Alright. So a fighter with greatsword reaches around 24-30 str without problems. That's 2d6+15+weapon damage bonuses+epic weapon specialization. He can take classes like weapon master to add incredibly powerful crits to this. And get incredibly high AB with his chosen weapon, if going into epic levels with WM. What does monk do? 2d10+gloves bonus+2 (maybe 3) from strength? No access to weapon spec, and no monk will go for strength in stat increases. Because you have only 32 points. And you need wisdom for your stunning fist and AC. You need constitution for saves and to not die from one hit. You need dexterity for attacks and AC. Str is just less important. I wasn't counting items which would increase stats. Maximum bonus to one stat (+12) still gives a fighter 9 damage and monk just 6.

Quote
Free Cleave to get an extra attack w/o burning a feat? Check.

Cleave is quite good, but not gamebreaking. There are better feats around. And fighter gets bonus feat every other level... Gets worse with other fighting classes though.

Quote
Best skills (Discipline, Tumble)? Check.

Best skill is UMD imho. And other classes have tumble and discipline too. Especially in PRC.

Quote
Uber SR that is hardwired (can't be reduced even w/ Mord's D) into NWN? Check. Thanks, Bozo-ware!

SR is great, that's true. Still there are spells not allowing SR (usually require a touch attack though...). Anyway you have to stick to a monk to get this. Otherwise it is crap.

Quote
Max SR so high that only a few caster builds can bypass 100%? Check.

40 caster level is base. Monk can get 50 SR. Any straight epic caster can beat this SR. Any caster who takes no more than 4 levels of non-casting classes (practiced spellcaster). And there we have Archmage and Red Wizard, which one can use to bolster the caster level. And magic penetration feats. It is not that hard to achieve for straight mage build to get 100% chance to bypass that SR.

Quote
Multiple abilities that add to AC? Check.

Exactly two. Three, if you want to count tumble. Given that monks do not use shields (which can be as much as +3 from tower shield and +5/6 for the enhancement) and armors (+8 plate armor, enhancement is on robes), they need it. Or even non buffed wizards would hit them often. Also remember that it's not that easy to have both dexterity and wisdom high.

Quote
AC that a fighter needs a 20 to hit? Check.

So... Let's say mundane equipment (I mean no attack and AC bonuses on armor and weapon, which should even out). So 30 base AB, +2 epic weapon focus, +1 epic prowess. +14 str (18 base, +8 level ups,+12 str from items =38). It gives us 47 AB. Quite low honestly. AC of a monk would be 10 base, let's say he had 16 dex and 16 wis at the beginning. From stat increases he gets +4 AC. If he has both +12 wis and dex it's +12 to AC. 8 from tumble (nonexistent in PnP), 8 bonus AC for monk level. That is 10+6+4+12+16. It's 48. Then we should add the necklace, ring and boots. As long as the combined bonus is less than 19 hitting the monk is possible below 20. And this is not an AB-optimized build with 27 levels of Weapon Master or with Dragon Disciple and Bard for taunt and nice STR bonus. In a low magic world monks AC would be much lower by the way :P

Quote
Primary AC bonus type (Dodge) that stacks (while all other types don't?) Check.

Anybody is free to get AC boots... And again - he needs it.

Quote
Free level based AC bonus? Check.

It equals to a full plate at level 40. Much needed.

Quote
Free Improved Evasion to take 0 damage 95% of time to Evocation spells? Check.

Other classes have it too. And if you really optimize your DCs for spells it will be half damage quite often :D And other classes get imp evasion too.

Quote
Free Deflect Arrows (95% change to avoid 1 missile / round)? Check.

Bows are in general weak in DnD. This is a nice ability, but the greatest damage is being done by magic and melee weapons.

Quote
Easy access to Epic Dodge (opp's first attack always misses)? Check.

Not that easy. You have to multiclass (in PnP multiclassing -> you can never be a monk again) either as a rogue or shadow dancer (maybe some PRC classes would help here). Which screws up your AC bonus, makes you get some abilities later and destroys your precious SR.

Quote
Free Imp K-down to always K-down mages? Check.

Fighter has 11 bonus feats before level 20. There IS a place for improved knockdown. Anyway, try to hit a full-buffed mage. You really can't do it without rolling 20.

Quote
Free disease / poison immunity? Check.

Who cares about disease and poison? Those are just little annoyances really... Nice to have, but nothing gamebreaking.

Quote
Free 50% concealment? Check.

Strong, partially countered by blind-fight.

Quote
Fastest movement in the game? Check.

Yeah, needed so he could run from his enemies ;P

Quote
Uber-items tailor made for class (Boots of uber Dodge, Gauntlets of uber damage)? Check

Take a level of rogue or bard (or many other classes from PRC), get UMD, use all monk-only items as you please. Problem solved.

Quote
If you can't be hit by spells (SR too high), take damage from spells (Imp Evasion) or even be hit by fighter weapons (AC too high), it pretty much compromises your whole system.
And you can't do enough hurt to anyone because your AB is so low and your damage is weak...

Quote
That didn't quite happen, but some WotC / Bozo-ware eggheads tried REAL hard to turn D&D into Monks & Punks (everyone else).
Monk is IMO only strong as a dip. 2 levels to get +3 to all saves and wis to AC as shapechanging druid or armorless cleric. Four levels to optimize the BAB. Well, access to monk stuff is nice too.
Ideas are bulletproof.


September 09, 2011, 10:46:11 AM
Reply #7

It's pretty much a given that WotC went a long way to compromising the whole system for whoever championed monks. The old Bozo-ware boards beat this to death. Here are the highlights.

Best saves? Check.
Lowest difference between attacks (3 v. fighter 5)? Check.
Most melee attacks w/o TWF / Tempest type builds? Check.
More unarmed damage than melee weapons (2d10 @ L20)? Check.
Free Cleave to get an extra attack w/o burning a feat? Check.
Best skills (Discipline, Tumble)? Check.
Uber SR that is hardwired (can't be reduced even w/ Mord's D) into NWN? Check. Thanks, Bozo-ware!
Max SR so high that only a few caster builds can bypass 100%? Check.
Multiple abilities that add to AC? Check.
AC that a fighter needs a 20 to hit? Check.
Primary AC bonus type (Dodge) that stacks (while all other types don't?) Check.
Free level based AC bonus? Check.
Free Improved Evasion to take 0 damage 95% of time to Evocation spells? Check.
Free Deflect Arrows (95% change to avoid 1 missile / round)? Check.
Easy access to Epic Dodge (opp's first attack always misses)? Check.
Free Imp K-down to always K-down mages? Check.
Free disease / poison immunity? Check.
Free 50% concealment? Check.
Fastest movement in the game? Check.
Uber-items tailor made for class (Boots of uber Dodge, Gauntlets of uber damage)? Check.

If you can't be hit by spells (SR too high), take damage from spells (Imp Evasion) or even be hit by fighter weapons (AC too high), it pretty much compromises your whole system.

That didn't quite happen, but some WotC / Bozo-ware eggheads tried REAL hard to turn D&D into Monks & Punks (everyone else).

Thankfully they aren't on Athas so I got rid of them.
HEATSTROKE


September 09, 2011, 05:38:22 PM
Reply #8

Fermi was a Pyrokineticist


October 10, 2011, 09:39:13 PM
Reply #9

Quote
Bows are in general weak in DnD. This is a nice ability, but the greatest damage is being done by magic and melee weapons.

Take a look at the Eternal Divine Bowman in template builds.
Fermi was a Pyrokineticist


January 17, 2012, 06:43:08 PM
Reply #10
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Umm, well... This is kinda too strong of a feat. That would mean that 3 warlock/2 fighter could get lesser invocation when he reaches warlock 4. Which would kind of break the WotC standard of 3 least, 3 lesser, 3 greater, 3 dark. It should be more or less equal to practiced spellcaster feats - increasing caster level (which helps with dispel checks and SR, and also increases duration and damage of spells). And those feats don't give access to higher level spells. So I would call it "practiced invoker" instead and make it increase eldritch blast damage and invoker level.

While I would certainly enjoy this feat (who doesn't want better invo's earlier? :D), I think it may be imbalanced. What you would lose by abandoning the class for four levels would be just the class abilities and you would have less invocations. And you would be just fine with power of the invocations you know.

I'm not sure I see how it is any less unbalanced than the practiced spellcaster feats which are implemented.  Yes, a caster can move out of class for four levels and not lose caster level.  A caster does then lose or delay class-based feats, as you point out.  It is also worth noting that in an epic level game, you not only use one feat to get practiced spellcaster, but the delay in reaching epic spellcaster ultimately costs you an epic caster feat (four fewer levels of caster equals one less caster feat).  Warlock would work out pretty much the same way.

DM Heatstroke also pointed out that the feat is homebrew.  It is, however, logical homebrew, offering an invoker a feat comparable to what regular casters get, not some completely incongruous addition.


January 17, 2012, 07:52:03 PM
Reply #11
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The thing is: a wizard 4/fighter 4 with practiced spellcaster has an effective caster level of 8. But he has access only to level 2 spells, as wizard 4 should. The feat you linked to makes it possible for warlock 1/fighter 4/warlock 2 to get a lesser invocation, which is imbalanced. You take two levels and get an ability which is supposed to be available after investing six levels in the class? That's the only problem I see with the feat. It should increase your caster level, which has an effect on damage and duration of the invocations you already have. But it should not give access to more powerful invocations, because practiced spellcaster/manifester does not do that.
Ideas are bulletproof.


January 18, 2012, 10:36:35 AM
Reply #12
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Will this be OK?
Quote
Practiced Invoker
Type of Feat: General.
Prerequisite: Spellcraft 4.
Specifics: Your caster level for the chosen invoking class increases by 4. This benefit can't increase your caster level to higher than your Hit Dice. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain Hit Dice in levels of noninvoking classes, you might be able to apply the rest of the bonus.

For example, a human 5th-level warlock/3rd-level fighter who selects this feat would increase his warlock caster level from 5th to 8th (since he has 8 Hit Dice). If he later gained a fighter level, he would gain the remainder of the bonus and his warlock caster level would become 9th (since he now has 9 Hit Dice).

This feat does not affect your invocations per day or invocations known. It increases your caster level only, which would help you penetrate spell resistance and increase the duration and other effects of your invocations.
Use: Automatic.


January 18, 2012, 11:32:40 AM
Reply #13
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January 18, 2012, 11:41:43 AM
Reply #14

that's how it should be .. but i don't know, kind of agree with above statements; where the feat count as caster level for learning new invocations ... warlock only get like 1 inv per 2 lvls (mostly, a part from levels 10-15 i.e), and few relly on casting level for their duration, and won't increase eldritch Blast either @@ would make the feat kind of a tiny bit weaker than practiced spell casters for magic/divine casters .... maybe a compromise between the 2 ideas ?! xD increase caster level by 2 for learning new invocations (a level 4 warlock -2 fighter, would count as a level 6 warlock and therefore be able to learn least invocation ?) kind of like tob classes ?! :P just my thought